Discussion: The Map

[ahowl11]

Philadelphos

[ahowl11]

His response:

Thanks for the two studies of the Australian professor. They are really well done. It is funny that he comes to some results that are quite close to mine.
In Africa he has a region called Metagonia (Hippo Regius). I don't know where he got that name, can't find it. I called it Massylia and if you look at his third map it's exactly there around Hippo Regius. He reserves Massylia for what I have properly named Numidia. With my system that region doesn't even need to be landlocked.

Regarding Sicily I'm really satisfied to see that he, too, has five regions there. The name of Elymia is better reserved for Lilybaeum. In Panormus were the Sicani, but that's just a naming problem.  I do not think however that the Carthaginians should hold Panormus at the start, because they didn't. The region was mostly independent and the Syracusans took more than a shot too (Pyrrhus briefly conquered it). They have to fight it out. In my experience the Carthaginians take it approximately 60%, the Syracusans (Epirus) about 25%, the Greek Cities (Agrigentum) about 10% and the Romans (directly from the Slave owner) 5%.

He also has Melite, as I did in the first place. But then I studied more about it and learned that it's not worth the slot. In antiquity it was never very important. I have it now with Elymia and placed a minor settlement there. This means it is a good advance post for the Carthaginians to spot Syracusan or Roman fleets. When the Romans conquer Lilybaeum this will end and Melite comes to Rome, and this is exactly what happened at the end of the First Punic War. After that Melite played no more role until Medieval times.

In Sardinia he has two regions, but as I turned out, in my opinion it's not worth the slot (although I'd like to have a Sardinian port at Olbia in the northeast to launch attacks on Italy, but Corsica can make up for that). I do however highly agree with what he writes on the AOR and therefore I had already included Sardinia, Corsica and Elymia in one Mercenary Pool. That allows the Carthaginians to have Sardinian and Balearic mercenaries in Sicily where they probably need them most (our prof cites one source from Diodor stating this). Regarding AORs, I have a different system which is even more articulate than theirs. Thus I can make Sardinia an AOR of its own.

In Spain I don't get all the details, but the study appears accurate. I have only one Carthaginian region there in the beginning, but usually they don't take long before conquering two more. So my game appears more realistic.
Regarding Emporia I'm thinking now about making it the port of Narbo and make Ilergetum landlocked, but that won't be due before version 1.4, because it breaks the compatibility with 1.2. Well I still have to think about it. If we only had 220 slots!

Finally I like what he writes about the necessity of a Magna Graecia faction led by Pyrrhus, because I think that I have put this into being and it works fine.

[Bercor]

As I said, we don't need to completely overhaul the map in the BETA release. Do some small corrections for this release and when we have our own map we can do what we want.

[ahowl11]

Yup I've already completed the name changes.
leoni from TWC has not responded in awhile. I hope he can soon. If not I have a backup Idea!

[Bercor]

Good to know.

[ahowl11]

Actually we might be able to just go with that option. The map I am talking about is the Fortuna Orbis map. It's pretty realistic. Caligula Caesar sent a blank version of it to me a few years ago. We could use that one. OR we could clear everything off of the current map and start from scratch?

[Bercor]

Actually we might be able to just go with that option. The map I am talking about is the Fortuna Orbis map. It's pretty realistic. Caligula Caesar sent a blank version of it to me a few years ago. We could use that one. OR we could clear everything off of the current map and start from scratch?

For now, I would just wait and see what leoni does. There's no need to worry, there's so much to be done that we don't think to hurry things up.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Wow it seems a lot happened here. Who is that Australian professor? I'm not sure about the whole Sardinia thing, of course it was important, but then again many places on the map are/were, but we've only got those 199 settlements. Perhaps we can have the region more detailed in a later sub campaign. I'm also quite sure Panormos was part of the Epikrateia in 280 BC, since that was before Pyrrhos' invasion and if Carthage had been weak at this time the Greeks wouldn't have plead Pyrrhos to help I think.

[Bercor]

Wow it seems a lot happened here. Who is that Australian professor?

Hamilcar Barca?

I'm not sure about the whole Sardinia thing, of course it was important, but then again many places on the map are/were, but we've only got those 199 settlements. Perhaps we can have the region more detailed in a later sub campaign. I'm also quite sure Panormos was part of the Epikrateia in 280 BC, since that was before Pyrrhos' invasion and if Carthage had been weak at this time the Greeks wouldn't have plead Pyrrhos to help I think.

Personally, I'm quite fond of the ideia for three reasons. Firstly, we are thinking of implementing some mechanics, also suggested by HamilcarBarca, to increase the importance of the mediterranean islands. Secondly, historicity. From what I've read, Sardinia was a pivotal territory between the Roman-Punic wars. Thirdly, it would make our mod different from all the others, with a greater focus in the wars around the mediterranean, rather than that against the barbarians.

[Mausolos of Caria]

Ah okay I wasn't aware of that. On Sardinia, well I'd love a focus on the Mediterrenean islands- I also still hope on a Punic war expansion for Rome II with detailed Sicily and different factions on Sicily e.g., maybe we can do that as a sub campaign?  I'm just a massive fan of Sicilian as well as Aegean history and the other islands would also be extremely interesting if we could make the AI manage naval invasions (on RTR VII it seemsto work quite well, the Macedonians attacked me on Samos when I was Pergamon and the Romans repeatedly invaded Corsica and once Sardinia when I was Carthage). Back on the main campaign, if ahowl would support a focus on Mediterrenean and naval warfare, I'd be all okay with that. Which other settlement on Sardinia would you propose, Tharros?

[Bercor]

Back on the main campaign, if ahowl would support a focus on Mediterrenean and naval warfare, I'd be all okay with that. Which other settlement on Sardinia would you propose, Tharros?

It seems the most obvious answer. It was founded by Phoenicians in the eight century BC and was one of the most important towns  in the island.

The AI is quite capable of performing naval invasions in BI, the best of the series pre-warscape, I dare say.

[ahowl11]

I don't know guys. I think we could make a Punic Wars mod for the grand campaign. That would represent everything better. The grand campaign needs to focus on all areas of the map. I know another settlement in Sardinia is wanted, if anything we could take out Themiskyra to do this.

I don't want to make too many edits because I if we did that, we might as well make a map from scratch.

We could simply put a fort there to simulate Nuragic Warriors, and we could make Caralis a more important city than what it already is.

[Bercor]

I don't know guys. I think we could make a Punic Wars mod for the grand campaign. That would represent everything better. The grand campaign needs to focus on all areas of the map. I know another settlement in Sardinia is wanted, if anything we could take out Themiskyra to do this.

I don't want to make too many edits because I if we did that, we might as well make a map from scratch.

We could simply put a fort there to simulate Nuragic Warriors, and we could make Caralis a more important city than what it already is.

Well, you are the mod leader, ultimately you'll decide. I'm merely presenting my opinion. I know we are making a grand campaign, nevertheless, it's true that, historically speaking, the major stage of operations were the territories around the Mediterranean, and not Germania or Britannia, even more true since we're making an Republican timeline mod. As such, I think that we should focus in them.

In regards to the map, I'm one that thinks that we should have our own map, if not the map in itself then settlements choosed by us as result of investigation. I know that this aproach is more lenghty and involves more work but, in the end, the final result is also much more pleasant. Now, we don't need our own map for the BETA release, the current will suffice very well. However, after the BETA, when we are working in the real mod, then I think  it would be the best option.

[ahowl11]

I tend to agree. I'm going to make a new thread regarding the BETA stages etc

[Mausolos of Caria]

Sounds good. I'd really love us to do a Punic War mod later on, since apart from the early RTR VII there never really was one, and if we add factions like new Iberian tribes, the Mamertines, Akragas or Tarentum we would only need very few new units. Obviously a new, more zoomed in map would be necessary, but I'm merely presenting my opinion, like Bercor does. For now we should focus on the main campaign anyway, but if you guys agree (what you seem to do) a Punic Wars sub campaign could be the target after that. Just putting out my reasons for it again:

- It has never really been done
- It doesn't need too many new buildings/units etc.
- It would add immersion and could introduce little factions like the Edetani, Akragas, the Mamertines, Tarentum or the Insubrians, most of them having never been featured before
- Almost every players knows and likes this age and is interested in the overall conflict